Unplugged by Up-Lead

Caroline: Hey guys, welcome to Up-Lead. We're a company on a mission: bridging the gap between young leaders and seasoned executives. We coach on things like accountability; receiving, processing, and implementing feedback; showing up as a polished professional; having presence; and how to be an adaptable leader — shifting your mindset from “what's in it for me” to “what's in it for we.” I'm super excited for this podcast. This is Unplugged by Up-Lead. I am, I guess, your host — Caroline Ferguson. My experience ranges from being involved in the startup community to now overseeing a $3 million operation. I have extensive experience as it relates to the process of going from ideation to execution, and it's something I'm super passionate about. I'm joined here by my partner and co-founder, Elizabeth Foster, who's got an incredibly diverse background — stemming from academics and child care, and now into communications. She oversees the inbound and outbound, internal and external communication for over 400 clients at Southwest Utility Solutions. And I'm also joined by my other partner and co-founder, Sean Jackson, who's got an extensive operations-based background — from the military, being in the Marine Corps, to now overseeing an operation that involves service execution for over 400 clients month over month. This is Up-Lead. We're super excited that you're here. Unplugged by Up-Lead is our podcast where we talk about hard things: accountability, communication, having hard conversations. That's what we do. So without further ado, let's get into it.

Caroline: All right — accountability, my friends. Let's talk about it.

Sean: Oh, that's scary.

Elizabeth: It is scary.

Sean: Hey, I feel like you're calling me out.

Caroline: Well, you were super scared of it at one point.

Sean: Well, it was for a reason, right?

Caroline: Okay — enlighten us.

Sean: The reason I was scared of accountability initially is mainly because of the negative connotation we give it as people. When I was in the Marine Corps, I remember associating accountability with the repercussions that would happen if I didn't complete an action. I'd be more consumed by the fact that, hey, if I don't get this done, my staff is going to hold me accountable — whatever the heck that means. And as a snot-nosed 19-year-old, I knew what that meant. But as I've gotten older, that same thought process followed me. Going into a professional setting, I still thought the word accountability meant that if you don't do this, there's going to be repercussions. I found myself more worried about the repercussions that followed than the task at hand.

Caroline: That makes sense. I think accountability is so scary because people lack clarity on what success looks like. To your point, we get so focused on the repercussions — you're motivated at that point by fear, and that's not a good way to do life, to be motivated by fear all the time. We just think if it falls, the world will fall apart and crash and burn, and it's our fault.

Sean: Right. And then — how do I rebound? Because now I've let the people who are depending on me down. So how do I salvage my reputation? The person who said they were going to hold me accountable — I did something, I didn't do it up to their standard, and now what's going to happen? So I'm worried about the repercussions that follow rather than the task at hand.

Caroline: When you were in the Marine Corps and struggling to discern whether accountability was a positive or a negative thing, what did you do to figure it out? What steps did you take toward discerning, okay, maybe it's not as bad as I thought?

Sean: That's the thing. When I enlisted I was about 19, so around that age I was more or less trying to figure out myself — where do I stand as a person? So in terms of discerning whether it could be used to my advantage, I wasn't taking any of that into account. It wasn't until I shifted into the professional setting I'm in now, at our main company, that I started to realize, okay, this could actually be used as a tool — to leverage myself in terms of getting what I want. And once my brain made that connection, fireworks went off, baby. I was like, okay, now I hold control over the things I do. Because if I understand that these repercussions follow, then I can take the time to figure out what to do to not get to that point. Does that make sense?

Caroline: Yeah, it makes sense. I think people who struggle with being held accountable — and those who lack accountability — lack the ability to take complete ownership of something.

Sean: That's it. Two years ago, I wouldn't have owned it. I would've said, “It was his fault, he didn't tell me.” That's easy. It's easy to do.

Caroline: You can't do that anymore, though. It looks bad.

Elizabeth: No — well, it doesn't serve anybody.

Caroline: It doesn't serve anybody. And I think, as young professionals graduating and entering the workforce — nobody teaches this in school. This is life-skill, real-world experience kind of stuff. What does accountability look like in college? Receive assignment, complete assignment. That's what success is measured by. In the real world it's so different — you're held accountable in your job, your home, your family, your relationships, your network. Being able to really own something, and own the consequence of your behavior — I think that's what sets good leaders apart. And it goes both ways. You as the individual need to be able to be held accountable, which is hard, but your leaders also have to be held accountable. When you've got leadership that doesn't take accountability, it's a recipe for disaster.

Sean: 100%. And it's funny — the people in those roles, they notice the subtle things the leader does. So if my direct manager handled a situation and pushed the blame off to someone else — well, what stops that from happening at the next level? It's a two-way street. You can see it getting dished out the same way, especially to the people reporting to you, if that makes sense.

Caroline: No, it makes sense. I think we lose sight of the fallout that's a product of leaders who lack accountability, because the downstream consequence is so impactful. I speak from prior experience. One of my first jobs out of high school, I did an internship at a company that did financial advising for parents trying to send their kids to college. I can remember being so frustrated as a young leader there — heck, I wasn't even out of college, I was out of high school, fresh off the boat, 18 years old. I had no business doing that internship, but there we were. It was a small business, so I worked closely with the owner. And I was so frustrated with him and our leadership team, because everybody was happy and go-lucky and wanted to do all the things, but when things didn't work out, there was no accountability. It became a scary, hold-your-breath kind of thing, because if somebody dropped the ball there were very negative repercussions. There was no space for conversation, no space for problem resolution, no space to collaborate and work toward the solution. It was fear. And not only did my leader not know how to hold me accountable — my leader wasn't even willing to be held accountable.

Sean: Yeah, it's a two-way street. The leader holds the team accountable, and the team is also supposed to hold the leader accountable. For it to be a high-functioning team, that has to go both ways — if you're able to dish feedback, you should be able to receive feedback. The issue with a lot of places nowadays is you're not really in a space where you can comfortably dish feedback without there being recourse — someone protecting themselves. And it goes back to accountability. When you think of the word, you're right, it's a scary word. But it shouldn't feel that way. Just like if I say, “Hey Caroline, can you do this for me? This wasn't done yesterday” — you're not going to say, “Well, sorry, it was Sean, I thought he gave it to you, I don't know, y'all.” No. You own it. And that's what you want out of your team: complete ownership. There's no excuse.

Sean: That was another thing — again, two years ago, I would have said, “I didn't do it because I had to leave early, I had an appointment, I'm sorry.”

Caroline: Right — why? You just added more to it.

Sean: Yeah, it absolutely doesn't serve you, especially when it's something critical that needs to be done. If it's not done, instead of pushing it onto your team or concluding “it's not my fault” — how does that serve you? Now we're all wasting time trying to chase down where the problem was, because so-and-so said he wasn't the problem, when in actuality he was. So if you own it in the moment, your team can acknowledge it: okay, this is what happened, how do we move away from it, how do we fix it, how do we move forward? Don't get stuck in the what-happened. Own it in the moment.

Caroline: Yeah — own it in the moment. I like that.

Sean: Own it in the moment, baby. We're freaking out in the moment, sure. But once you're able to own that thing and get with your team — okay, this is what happened, we know how it happened, what does moving forward look like? How do we get to the next step, or remedy this? Because the ultimate objective is coming to a remedy rather than fixating on the problem. Fixating isn't going to make anybody happy.

Caroline: And if you're not comfortable with accountability, fear prevents those kinds of conversations. It's paralyzing. I think it goes back to alignment and expectations. Young leaders — based on the conversations and experiences we've all had — really struggle with articulating, “Hey, this is how I need to be held accountable.” Like, I've got my KPIs, my metrics, my success description for my job, but these are the ways I want you to use to hold me accountable to that success. Young leaders need to feel more equipped and empowered to go to their leaders and say, “These are the things I need.”

Sean: That's it — empowerment. It's huge. And that's the issue: empowerment has a downstream effect. If you don't empower your team to feel like they're in a place where they can safely admit to something, then the consequence downstream is they're going to lack accountability. All those words work in concert. But to get to a place where you're a high-agency individual, a high-agency team, highly effective — it starts with empowerment, and the back end of it is accountability.

Caroline: 100%. And in your experience in the child care world — running schools, leading big teams, having teachers and staff — what worked for you? How did you hold your team accountable? What did those conversations look like?

Elizabeth: It was — again, that whole “empower” piece. I was listening to you just now, and the way you described it, that was it. Even on your lowest days, when you're defeated and exhausted, when somebody got upset with you — it was hearing, “Hey, you survived. You did it. It's fine. You didn't log a diaper in, that's why they're upset — but you survived. Tomorrow's a new day, and we're going to start all over.” So I didn't make them feel less. I didn't say, “Hey, you didn't do that.” Even today — I didn't do something for Sean and I dropped the ball. And I said, “I'm sorry, I dropped the ball.” Then I got the files from the room and sent them over to him: “Boom, here you go. I'm sorry it wasn't done first thing this morning.”

Caroline: That's such a good point. When you're in a relationship or environment that prioritizes accountability, and you feel safe enough to have these conversations, the impact is in the follow-up and the resolution — getting shown the files, having the conversation about what tomorrow looks like with your staff at the school. Those conversations, and the behavior that follows, happen ten times faster. “I'm ready to give you what you need. You've held me accountable, I'm ready to jump into action.” If I feel comfortable and empowered to be held accountable by my team, I'm that much more likely to jump into, okay, what is it you needed me to do?

Sean: And if you really think about it, that's part of the reason the Sunday-night scaries are a thing. Sunday rolls around, the weekend's coming to a close, you're having dinner, getting ready for bed, and you're thinking, “Man, I've got to go back into that place tomorrow. I've got to hear so-and-so's mouth, I've got to do X, Y, Z.” And you dread your workplace. But if you create an environment where your team feels they can own up to those things, you create an ecosystem where they work well with one another — a very high-functioning environment. The biggest thing is understanding that and weaving it into the culture of your small business. When you weave it into the fiber of your company, it's game-changing.

Caroline: I mean, it's part of our core values at our main company, and it bleeds through our ecosystem there. HERO.

Sean: HERO. That's right.

Caroline: Welcome back — we took a short break. We're excited to continue. We were just talking about — what, Sean?

Sean: The Sunday scaries.

Caroline: The Sunday scaries. What does that look like?

Sean: The Sunday scaries is: you get to Sunday night, your weekend's coming to a close, you're having dinner, getting ready for bed, and you're thinking, “Man, I've got to go back into that place tomorrow. I've got to hear so-and-so's mouth.” You just dread your workplace. And it's like — okay, this is the thing that puts food on the table, why do you dread it so much? Now it's time to dissect: why exactly do you hate it so much? Usually it's part of the conversation we had earlier — the accountability thing. If you feel ostracized because you did something wrong, of course you're going to fear going back. Of course, when that long break ends, you're not going to want to go back.

Caroline: Yeah, I think you're 100% spot on. And it's one thing to be scared of accountability — that's one part of it. But if you're resistant to accountability, accountability-averse, that's also a recipe for disaster. Because college doesn't teach it, kids get their first round of this in their first job, and they're conditioned to believe accountability is a scary thing, so they become resistant to it and they shut down.

Sean: And when you look at it over an extended period, you can see the things that get them to the point of being accountability-averse. It's: I have a bad experience with something, and how does my brain process that? I imagine the last time I was held accountable. So as those events progress, you begin to be resistant — and that's where change agents come in, and where a lot of people become resistant to change. From a psychological standpoint, they all go hand in hand.

Caroline: Yes. And the downstream effect of your inability to receive and implement feedback and be held accountable is detrimental, because it's going to follow you everywhere in your career. It's going to show up in every conversation, within every relationship. That inability is going to show up everywhere.

Sean: Boo. Spooky.

Caroline: So here's a question for you guys. If you're talking to a young leader or young professional — somebody fresh out of school — and you're trying to coach them on how to have a conversation with their leader about being held accountable, facing it head on: “My connotation of accountability is negative, I'm trying to overcome that. Help me understand what accountability looks like within my organization.” How would you coach that young leader to have that conversation with their business owner?

Sean: Honestly, I think you started with the right answer — it's just the question. It's setting the foundation: “This is how I perceive the word accountability, this is how my prior experience shaped the connotation I associate with it. I need your help reframing that.” And honestly, the leader in charge will more or less get to a point where they think, “All right, now I'm tasked with something, because so-and-so is counting on me.” So you've shifted the power: instead of “I'm scared of X, Y, Z,” it's “How can you help me overcome this fear?”

Caroline: Oh, good.

Sean: Because when you think about fear and where it's rooted — this is something my wife says, and I use it all the time — whenever you're having an episode linked to past trauma, when you're reacting to it, you're not reacting as your current self. You're reacting as the age you were when that trauma occurred. So back when I was 19 — Lance Corporal Jackson — if I have a bad association with the word accountability, when I hit that point, I go right back there. For instance, when we first brought up accountability, when I was brought onto the leadership team — we were all snot-nosed kids ready to rock and roll — and you guys said, “All right, Sean, how do we hold you accountable?” I immediately went back to my 19-year-old self, thinking about how I let down all my leaders, and how accountability was more or less a mask for “this is how you're going to get punished for not doing this.”

Caroline: I love that, because at one point all of us had a terrible leader. And so we've learned we don't want to be like that, right?

Elizabeth: And I remember the same thing. When I first started, I think I messed up on something, and I was terrified to come to you. I came to you, and you said, “Oh, that's okay — here's how we can fix it.” And I'm over here shaking, like, “That's it?”

Caroline: And you did — “Am I okay? The world's not ending? Okay, we're fine. You're going to survive.”

Elizabeth: We're going to survive — because why? Because a year and a half ago, after joining the company, I was with a terrible leader. And that leader told me, “No, you failed. You're a failure.” That was so hard to hear. So I thought everybody was like that — immediately, “I messed up, you're going to punish me.”

Caroline: How do you deal with a leader like that? You had a terrible leader, and you were in a leadership position — responsible for a team and for schools. When the big boss, who maybe isn't in the trenches with your team, puts that kind of pressure on you, is incapable of having a conversation about what accountability looks like, and is instilling fear — how do you manage that relationship? What did you do?

Elizabeth: Unfortunately, I did not have a good example. So I knew, “This isn't how we should react.” I needed people to hear me — we'd run out of something and that was the fallout, and we could get in trouble, because it's a licensing thing. So sometimes I'd have to be stern: “Hey, I need this now, so please help me.” That sometimes helped. But in my eyes it was a learning for me: this is not what I want my team to see in a leader. So I may have a terrible leader right now, but I'll try my hardest to show my team, “I want to be here. I want to support you.”

Caroline: That makes you a great leader — an even better leader. You are an excellent leader. I think there's also something to be said for the fact that everybody's definition of accountability looks different.

Elizabeth: It is.

Caroline: And it's so important — when you're a young leader or young professional, to be able to have a conversation with your boss or manager and say, “This is my perception of accountability. What is accountability, and what does it mean for you within our organization? What does it look like?” Because it's one thing to say, “This is how I like to be held accountable, these are the things that work for me.” I'll give you an example: if you're going to give me feedback, I prefer it one-on-one. I thrive in a collaborative environment, but critical feedback I receive best one-on-one. And I'm good to receive it — I love feedback. Give me all the feedback. I want to become a better version of myself. If I'm the same version I was 10 years ago, I've failed as a human being — we have to evolve and grow. But it all goes back to aligned expectations. If I don't know what direction I'm running toward, and how fast you want me to run, I'm never going to be successful. Every business owner has some notion of what success looks like for a role — what good looks like when somebody's in that seat. Everybody's got a vague idea. But when you force a leader to get concrete, tactical, and black-and-white about it, it's so powerful. And 99% of the time, they're not willingly giving up that information — it takes the professional going to them and asking. So the question becomes: how do you empower that young leader to feel confident enough to do that? Which is why I'm so excited about Up-Lead — shameless plug — because that's what we coach on.

Sean: That's what we coach on, that's what we talk about. How to process these hard instances, these hard things that happen within your company. As a young professional, I can't even empathize with the transition from college — how lackadaisical college is. You get X, Y, Z done and, guess what, you got an A. I think back to my college days and, dude, I blew through that. But that doesn't translate well when you transition into a professional setting, because all those hypotheticals you were working on in that college sandbox — in tech we call it a sandbox — don't translate when you're, say, in finance working with real dollars. You just cost so-and-so X amount of dollars and you really jacked up. So in terms of assimilation, what does it look like to help young professionals understand where they messed up, and how to process those hard things day to day? They need an outlet for that. You can't vent at the workplace, and you can't vent to people who aren't in the same season of life as you.

Caroline: Correct. I think we can all agree — 10 years ago, we wish we'd had this.

Sean: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Caroline: And leaders who lack accountability — leaders who can't communicate “this is how we hold people accountable within our organization, this is how you should hold me accountable as your leader, this is how I intend to hold you accountable as my employee” — those leaders create angry employees.

Sean: Yes — fed-up, angry, tired employees.

Caroline: And the downstream consequence is that it's going to affect your bottom line. That's why there's so much turnover.

Sean: So much turnover. If your place is a revolving door — I can tell you right now, it's probably because your employees have a bad perception of accountability. I'm just saying.

Caroline: It's huge, because bad leaders create angry employees. And what do you do with that anger? You suffocate it, you push it down — and at some point it blows up.

Sean: You sabotage the operation. You sabotage everything.

Caroline: Yeah. You go back to the Sunday scaries. And you think, “How can I get back at this guy?” — or you blow up on your boss and yell at him because he said you cut a cake incorrectly.

Elizabeth: Oh, whoa. Trigger. That was mean.

Sean: Got real upset. Cut a circle cake into square pieces — turns out you're not supposed to do that.

Elizabeth: Thinking outside the box.

Sean: Thinking outside the circle.

Caroline: All right, let's wrap with this. What piece of advice would you give a recent college graduate who just got their first job, fresh out of school, and they're scared of accountability — going into their first day, excited and eager, but so nervous? What's your one piece of advice if they're struggling with accountability?

Elizabeth: The world won't end. No matter what happens — even if it's a rough day, even if you don't know whether you can hit a deadline — you own it. It's done or not done, but the world will not crash. You'll wake up the next day and try again.

Sean: I'd say use it to your advantage. If you mess something up, or the accountability conversation comes up, the roles reverse. Because the person directly in charge of you is conditioned to think you're going to deny, deny, deny. But if you own it — imagine what that does for the person above you. They think, “Okay, you're actually a pretty bright kid,” because you owned the mistake rather than pushing it off on somebody else. So that's what I tell myself: whenever you're put in a position to be held accountable for something — own it.

Caroline: Mine would be two pieces of advice. First: you're entering a workforce where your leaders are jaded. They've had employees who burned them, who took advantage of them, who weren't ethical, who were unfair. So you've already got 10 cards stacked against you. On top of that, you're fighting the impression of your generation — which is painted as entitled and arrogant, and we're trying to reframe that, because it's not that. People aren't scared to articulate what they want now; it's just, how do you have that conversation in a productive way? So knowing your leaders are jaded, and knowing you have to fight against what your generation represents — get clear on expectations. Day one, get clear on expectations. Sit down with that manager and say, “What does success look like for me, and how will you hold me accountable to it? And how do I, as your employee, hold you accountable? And when things don't go right — because they won't, all the time — what do we do?” Getting clear. That's what I'd say.

Sean: Boom. Love it. That's it.

Caroline: Guys, thanks for hanging out with us. We're super pumped to be here, and we're so excited about Up-Lead — shameless plug. We do one-on-one and group coaching and sales training for young professionals entering the workforce who want to bridge the gap between their communication style and that of seasoned executives. We're pumped to be doing this, and we're excited for the next episode. Stay tuned, and come back to Unplugged by Up-Lead.

Sean: Come back at you. Bye, guys.

Elizabeth: Bye, guys.